Moral Authority

What exactly do these words mean? And how can they possibly be used to defend what we are doing in Iraq?

When George W. Bush talked to his "real father" about whether he should go to war with Iraq, he must not have been listening when the good lord said, "He who is without sin should throw the first stone".

Now many will say that Bin Laden threw the first stone and i don't disagree with that. But what does Iraq have to do with Bin Laden?

More importantly though, the first stone in the conflict between Christians and Muslims (that's what this is all about in the end) was probably thrown long before those words got into the Bible in the first place.

Which takes me back to "moral authority". Claiming to have "moral authority" in a mess like this is the most arrogant and dangerous thing a country can do. And we have done it.

Comments

[El Jefe]

I am in somewhat of an agreement with you on 'moral authority.' I am a firm believer in everyone having their right to chose. Be it religion, way of life or Burger King fries over McDonalds'. But, when I see how these 12th century zealots treat women and children I become 'morally outraged.' When they attack the western world because we're considered 'Crusaders' I become 'morally outraged.'

Maybe you believe in oppression and slavery. I, for one, do not. Do I believe that the US is just in going into Iraq? Yes. Do I believe that the Iraqis WANT us to liberate them from a tyrant? Yes. Do I want the US to put in a regime to further the agenda of the US? No. I don't want someone to push their agenda on me and I don't purport to push my agenda on someone else.

When you say that you don't totally disagree with the assertion that 'bin Laden threw the first stone' then what is it going to take? How many (buried) reports of Al Qaeda meetings with Iraq will it take for you (and others) to see that there IS a connection?

[Bevonovo]

Some facts. The part of the New Testament (from which you quote, "He who is without sin...") was written in 1st century AD and definitively canonized (universally recognized as "scripture") in the 4th century by Pope Damasus. There is more academic shading to these facts, however, the point is that the admonition, to the Pharisees, was given and recorded and recognized as "sacred" long before the birth of Mohammed (AD 570).

If you are to quote Jesus against the war, better to use his parable in which he urges his disciples to understand the cost of a campaign before setting out (Luke 14:31, "Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?")

[J at TAotB]

I do not agree.

There are many ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

Take Nick Berg's murder by one of OBL's top lieutenants, for example.

Yes, innocents have lost their lives due to US action. But at least we did not TARGET them. And we are as careful as possible to avoid them.

Should we have let Al Qaeda alone?

[Sun Tzu]

Umm, everybody who thinks OBL is not ecstatic about how we have reacted please raise your hand.

Secular Iraqi regime gone - check.

Images of America oppressing Arabs all over the airwaves and front pages of the Arab world - check.

Sunnis and Shias alike calling for jihad - check.

Smirk on W's face as he apologizes - priceless.

Got to love Bush, running on a platform to restore personal responsibility. We had 9/11, we have this Iraq fiasco, and the only person to lose his job is Bill Maher.

Jay Leno: "Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said that he was responsible for the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners.

And today President Bush said the abuse was cruel and disgraceful and an affront to the most basic standards of morality and decency.

And then he told Rumsfeld that he was doing a superb job.

Then Rumsfeld said, 'What the hell do I gotta do to get fired?'"

[Aron]

Wow - first of all, the Nick Berg example completely ignores the fact that many analysts specifically STATED that AFTER the US INVADES IRAQ, especially under lawless conditions where Saddam was no longer protecting his own borders, foreign (Al Qaeda and others) fighters would be drawn to Iraq as an opportunity to fight Americans. Secondly, according to the perpetrators of his death, the act was in direct response to the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse. --Nothing has shown a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda before we invaded (see http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/). Those people have been arriving into the country to fight. And there are very unbiased records of our causing pain to innocents (in the Abu Ghraib prisons there are wives and children of men who were not in their homes when the U.S. came to arrest them. And there are serious cases of female abuse in that prison). "US officials have acknowledged detaining women in the hope of convincing male relatives to provide information: a strategy that is in violation of international law. " see, http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1214671,00.html"

Also, Saddam and Osama disagreed fundamentally. Saddam wanted to create a powerful, proud Iraq - he was a nationalist first and quelled religious leaders. Osama wants to see a pan-Islamic state, not just national or Arab, but including African and Asian countries, unifying all muslims. They disagreed politically/ideologically.

Secondly- It is *very* hard to say who threw the first stone. We (the U.S., Russia, the U.K., et al) have been messing around in the Middle East and Arab World this century and before. I don't know my biblical history as to who used violence first (resulting in the Crusades). But even since the 1980s we were clearly messing around there. September 11th was not the first volley.

The TYRANTS we supported AND funded (including Saddam Hussein AND Osama Bin Laden in the 1980s) caused many more deaths under our control than occurred on that shocking day.

[Dhrumil]

I thought you would find this interview with Bill Moyers, on Fresh Air, pleasing.

He comments on blogs at the end of the interview.

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=05/13/2004

[JayR]

I really should thank Bush for talking about "moral authority". He reminded me of his party's linkage to Falwell and Robertson and why I never have and never will never vote Republican.

[compelled]

J@TAOTB:

Iraq was not Nick Berg's first encounter with Al Qida.

His internet access password was found on Moussaoui's laptop.

Al Qida is in Iraq because we are.

You don't really think Berg was a 'freelance radio repair contractor', do you?

[Dhrumil]

Fred,

I thought you would find this interesting:

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/images/iRAQsubway.jpg

taken from:
http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/strip-pix-burn-iraq-016298.php