Debate Night (continued)

Bush did a lot better. Kerry was about the same. I'd call it a draw.

But Bush did nothing to erase the perception that he's stubborn and in denial about his mistakes in foriegn policy and Iraq.

Kerry missed a lot of opportunities to pummel Bush. It makes me think he doesn't have that killer instinct that would help him seal the deal with voters who want a tough president.

But there was one defining moment for me. Bush hit Kerry on his vote against partial birth abortion. Kerry said clearly that he is against partial birth abortion but wants an exception for circumstances where the life and health of the mother requires it. Bush then just shrugged, smiled, and said, "well he voted against it".

Strong and wrong versus nuanced and right. We'll see where the american public comes out on this one.

Comments

[Jason Chervokas]

Fred,

I completely agree. No blood drawn really. From a campaign strategy POV as Kristol and Kondreke pointed out on TV, Bush failed to press a case vs. Kerry.

In the end I think that's gonna be tough for him to do because there's no way a race like this vs. an incumbent during a rivening war will be anything but a referendum on the incumbent.

[Hector]

I agree it was a draw.

And Fred you might rethink your plea that Kerry's pro-partial birth abortion stance is part of his "nuanced" views. Where is the nuance??? He's against ANY restrictions on abortion - parental notification, partial birth abortion ban, banning taxpayer bunded abortions - his position is IDENTICAL to NARAL. He even opposes the Laci Peterson law making a murder of a pregnant woman a double murder. Come on. Where is the nuance? Bush allows PBA if the mother's life is threatened, but we all know that the "health" argument is a loophole that anyone can drive a truck through. The "health" risk could be as simple as a headache, not to mention mental health.

In terms of where the American people come out on this issue, a MAJORITY of the American people now consider themselves PRO-LIFE, though a slim majority also believe in not overturning Roe v. Wade. This is changing in real-time and it won't be long before abortion is a states rights issue, as it should be.

[Brian]

Hector, you're entire post is spot on. Fred doesn't seem to understand that Kerry's "nuance" allows him to add vague clauses so that he doesn't need to take a position. I voted to give the President the authority to go to war, I didn't want to go to war. Didn't he know why the President asked for that authority?

[Jay]

One question that should have been asked would have been about the oil situation. With all that oil we have in Alaska, why are we not making use of it? The pipeline is, as far as I know, still shut down. When it was running, we were selling much of the oil produced up there to foreign interests. We need it here, and it's time the pipeline be reopened, and the oil kept for use here at home.

[Jay]

One question that should have been asked would have been about the oil situation. With all that oil we have in Alaska, why are we not making use of it? The pipeline is, as far as I know, still shut down. When it was running, we were selling much of the oil produced up there to foreign interests. We need it here, and it's time the pipeline be reopened, and the oil kept for use here at home.

[jeff lang]

Brian,
I'd respectfully disagree and say that Hector's comment, rather than being spot on, actually missed the mark. There is nuance in that issue and it is relevent. Many people care if the life of the mother is endangered and while I accept someone's right to not see that as a relevent factor - as it seemed the president did in his answer - it seems pretty disrespectful to not allow someone else - the senator - to consider that additional information in their opinion.

As far as the $87 billion vote goes, I'm going to throw up if I hear about it again. We all now understand the difference, my DOG now understands the difference, between voting for the authority to use force (as well as the strategic wisdom of doing so) and voting for the execution of that authority.
I can "vote" to authorize you to carry a firearm for your protection, but that does not mean that I have "voted" for you to use it recklessly, and I would reserve the right to condemn you if you did or to move to curb your further use of that authority.

There is absolutely nothing vague there. I think to suggest that there is is simply a cynical campaign tactic.

[Hector]

Jeff - you are confusing the vote to authorize force with the vote for the $87 billion supplemental appropriation. Kerry clearly voted against, as did Edwards, as Howard Dean was rocketing up in the Dem primary. Even liberals agree this is what happened. With regard to the vote to authorize force, if Bush used it recklessly when he invaded, where was Kerry's opposition at the time? In fact, Kerry emphatically supported, no, praised the President's performance in the invasion at the time. I fail to see the cynical campaign tactics by anyone other than Kerry and Edwards.

Also, what kind of dog do you have and why are you forcing him/her to learn about politics when most dogs are interested in other things (doing other dogs, eating, chasing cats, etc.). Someone call the SPCA.

[jeff lang]

Wouldn't the vote against the 87b qualify as JK expressing his disaproval of GWB's execution of the authorization? I still don't get how that's a shift of position.

I just think the whole thing has been so dirty. The president says things like "he voted for the war and then he voted against the war". There has never been a vote for the war. We know that but it seems that a lot of people don't - and GWB is exploiting that. And I think that's cynical. Voting against an appropriation is quite different than voting against the war and to even suggest that it is voting against the troops ranks among the slimiest things I can ever remember an American President saying. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is as simple as he is trying to portray it.

Hector, reasonable people can disagree but I truly don't understand why GWB and his proxies find it necessary to twist words and fight dirty to try to make a point. As a reasonable, and it seems patient, person, perhaps you can explain that to me.

Yeah, my dog's weird, she sits around all day watching cspan.

[jackson]

It seems it's all black and white for Hector and his bunch, nuance escapes them. The Laci Peterson bill, although it seems on it's face to be a simple matter of punishing a horrible crime, would actually open the door to reverse Roe/Wade. When a Senator votes against a bill, or even decides not to vote at all, it's usually not because they don't like the title of the bill, it's the attatchments that benefit special interests that give them pause.

[Tom Grey - Liberty Dad]

For those with an opinion, the debates allowed them to keep their opinions -- my support for Bush continues.

I think Bush should be pummeling Kerry stronger on exactly who, among possible allies not now in Iraq, does Kerry mean when he says he'll get more. He should define some reasonable number, like 2500, and say regime change in Iraq was certainly worth at least that effort -- and he's doing great. Bush should note that the UN is a corrupt, genocide protecting institution, that Kerry supports (how many will be murdered in Sudan's Darfur?).

Oh yeah, Kerry "talks" tough on Sudan -- like he talks against abortion. But on every vote, he finds some excuse to support more abortion -- I'm sure if there was a vote on sending troops to Sudan to force regime change, including the likelihood of US casualties, Kerry would find some "nuance" to avoid actually sending troops.

Kerry's past votes have always favored killing the innocent human fetus, whenever the mother thought having a baby was inconvenient. He could have, for instance, voted to make partial birth illegals, and submitted a further amendment to make an exception for the mother's health (possibly to be never used).

The pro-abortion Roe "amendment", which changed the US Constitution's meaning, is an increasing problem for Dems. Pro-life Catholics have been excommunicated from the Dem pro-abortion "church". The gay-marriage FMA is mostly a reaction against the non-democratic elitist way abortion was pushed, and gay-marriage is being pushed.

[Dave]

Speaking of twisting words and factual inaccuracies, you want to know my favorite from Kerry? It came in the first debate:

"... our historic allies: France, Germany, and Russia."

Um, say what? In which timeline is this statemtn even close to being true? It's statements like this that should give ALL voters cause for concern.

Then again, the fact that Bush didn't call him out to explain this only shows how poor his performance was in Miami.

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