Silence Means ... (continued)

My silence until now on Bush's speech last night just means I didn't watch it.

I decided that helping my kids with their homework and blogging and doing email was a better use of my time than watching Bush tell us what I already know.

That freedom is his goal internationally and social security reform is his goal domestically.  Plus he is opposed to stem cell research, gay marriage, and abortion.

I know all of that.

Like Jeff, I don't agree with him on stem cells, gay marriage, and abortion.

I think social security reform is a great idea if we learn from the lessons of Sweden, Britain, and Chile.

And I believe freedom throughout the world is a wonderful thing as long as it really happens.  But I wonder why the US has to be the freedom police for the rest of the world.

Comments

[Peter Hoskins]

Snap out of it. You are too smart to turn tail and pout. You probably don't want to hear that, you might not see it that way but that is how it looks. This is the type of partisan apathy I-didn't-get-my-way-so-I-am-going-to-opt-out-until-the-next-election bias that hurts this country. The Iraqi elections are a good thing be positive not eeyoreish. Fixing SS is a good thing so weigh in with something more than - fixing SS is great as long as we do it like Chile, GB and Sweden. How about we do it better...?

And as far as why should we be the freedom police...for the same reason we liberated Europe 60 years ago, for the same reason Lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation, for the same reason the founding fathers declared independence from oppressive governance. Because it is the right thing to do.

Even though I am to the right of where you stand – snap out of it, we need you (and others like you) in the game!

[Hector]

Dear Fred,

This is some breakthrough thinking for your party! The Democrats need more "smart guys" like you in charge. Keep up the good work and I hope Howard Dean recruits you as part of his leadership team. That idiot Bush is toast!

Yours,

Hector

[Englishman]

It makes interesting reading for those of us abroad to see how things look from the USA. And its interesting that Americans can see themselves as the freedom police. In 1776 you freed yourselves from the tyranny of the English, and fair enough. Understand that to a lot of the rest of the world the USA now looks like the English did to the Americans in 1776. You are the evil empire now. To quote a previous correspondent, "You probably don't want to hear that..."

[steve]

ok, englishman, i cant argue that some in the world view the usa with distaste, but do you? if so, why exactly? that is, please say exactly what the USA has done -- other than decline to create its policy thru some sort of consensus with its ostensible allies -- that makes it "the evil empire"? jeez louise, the USA is the evil empire? then what does that make radical islamicists? europeans and japanese are still so bruised from their own brutal exploits in colonialism and then subsequent continent wrecking world wars (particular those who played at fascism) that they now recoil from any attempt to say, hey, the world can be made a better place but sometimes (often?) that requires us to a) be unafraid to distinguish right from wrong (say, being in favor of women's rights even if it means offending some muslims) and b) take up arms.

the other thing you europeans have to deal with, which admittedly we in the usa do not, is a huge, growing, radical muslim population right in our midsts. its no longer politically correct to be in favor of the "melting pot" (versus the more politically palatable multicultural "mixed salad") but let's face it, we will never have peace on earth if we let our altruistic notions of multiculturalism sacrifice our practical notions of right and wrong -- and the fact the european governments are now essentially being dictated to by their loud angry radical isalmic populations is wrong, no matter how wrong it may feel to say so.

"the evil empire"? luke, your destiny is with us, the jedi, not with the dark side.

[Jackie]

Boy am I glad the U.S. were the freedom fighters back in 1945. They were a welcome sight for sore eyes to many prisoners. Perhaps if Roosevelt acted even quicker more of my relatives would have survived. Now, that being said, if someone told me my now 8 yr. old son would have to go to Iraq, I don't know how I'd feel. I do feel the men and women who are in Iraq are incredibly brave and under appreciated.

[anonymous]

Wow. What incredible open-mindedness. It must be great to know everything.

[Jackie]

I don't profess to know everything. At least I had the nerve to right my name down.
Jackie

[Jackie]

I actually meant the people in the death camps were a sight for sore eyes, and more importantly, am glad the U.S. did not remain isolationist.

[Englishman]

Steve,

I think there can be more than one evil empire simultaneously, and Osama and his pals certainly represent evil without an empire, though they would like the Islamic Caliphate back. European Empires, including the British one were also pretty evil.

The balance sheet for the USA has some credits and debits that I'm aware of. On the debit side, the blameless civilian dead in the Phillipines, Central America, SE Asia and now Iraq. Then there's also the support for a repressive Israeli government creating an intolerable situation for Palastinians, and pouring petrol on the fire that creates willing suicide bombers. On the positive side, helping defeat fascism and militarism in 1918 and 1945, though 20 million dead says that another evil empire, the soviet union, played a big part in the latter.

What I do view with distaste is a US government totally dominated by big oil and your military industrial complex blowing smoke about freedom, while acting solely in national geopolitical interest. Your government (and mine) are lying to you and the rest of the world. And our media is a willing accomplice in this.

Worse still, from the US perspective, it looks likely that you are going to lose on the ground. There were "successful" elections in South Vietnam only months before the 1968 Tet offensive which marked the beginning of the end there. And like S Vietnam, you aren't fighting a few terrorists in Iraq, you are fighting a significant minority of the population with widespread support. Just as soon as the Shia find that you aren't prepared to let a democratically elected government run behind the scenes by the US have any power, you might be fighting them too.

Your comments about European governments being dictated to by a loud angry radical islamic minority is an interesting one. Is this a widepsread view in the USA? If so, it is misguided. The anti-war faction here is a rainbow coalition of religious people from many faiths, and many irreligious people. Radical islam is totally marginalised, not least in the Islamic community itself which has woken up to the serpent in its midst.

Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to increase mutual understanding through civilized debate!

[Steve]

hello again englishman

always happy to debate, thanks for the opportunity.

the idea that radicalized muslim communities are huge and influential in european countries is not my view, it is a fact. Don't take my word for it; do the slightest bit of research -- search google under "islamic population europe" -- and you will find any number of reputable journalistic sources saying things such as:

"The latest developments in France must be analyzed in the global historical perspective. Besides this general attitude of the West toward Islam, the swift changes in the demographic statistics of the Mediterranean region is also causing alarm in France and other countries of the northern Mediterranean, such as Italy, Greece and Spain. According to the UN Mediterranean Blue Plan, published in Athens in 1987, in 1950 two-thirds of the Mediterranean population were Europeans, belonging to the countries stretching from the Straits of Gibraltar to the Bosphorus. But it is projected that by the year 2025, the population will be exactly reversed. Ten years from now, the Mediterranean will be an Islamic, if not an Arab, sea. The swift rise in the Muslim population has raised alarm among the European countries of the region, a concern that EC members have expressed repeatedly in their meetings. Robert Fox, in an article in the Daily Telegraph (London), "The human time-bomb in the Mediterranean," has gone as far as making a forecast of armed confrontation in the region within 20 years due to the shift in the population balance (Aziz, 1988)."

http://www.gmu.edu/academic/ijps/vol2_2/seljuq.htm

Finally, I wont dispute that the USA has made its share of shameful blunders and committed terrible mistakes and caused harm and loss. What country or cviliation hasn't? Is perfection what you seek? But on balance, the USA has been a hugely positive force in the world, spreading capitalism and representative democracy and government, admittedly with many lapses and bruises, but almost entirely with an altruistic bent. Ruled by oil? what modern society is not? the UK? Supporting Israel is wrong ebcause it is the "repressive" society? You mean Israel the democratic state, which accepted a Palestinian state in 1947, via the original UN mandate? and in which arabs vote and democratically get representation in the government and full rights for women? (a claim no arab state can make, repressive or otherwise)

and by vietnam, i assume you mean that it would have been better for the US to not fight the cold war, in order to avoid admitted tragedies like the vietnam war? by that reasoning, i guess you would suggest it would have been better for the USA to not have come to the aid of the Brits in WW2, so as to not have had the abominable tragedy of the fire bombing of dresden...?

when you find shangri-la, ping me. i'm looking for it also, desperately, but i'll never see it because i took off my rose colored glasses...

[Anonymous]

Jackie,

There is no need to take offense at a post which was not directed towards you, and I don't see how you could have ascertained that those comments had been. Besides, I agreed with your prior comments and felt nothing more needed to be said on the matter. fyi, I was responding to Fred's view that he didn't need to watch Bush's SOTU speech because he "knew everything".

Also, fwiw, could my preference to post anonymously on this blog be due to the fact that Fred is an investor in a company that I own and/or work for? You will never know. Regardless, your "nerve" to "right"(!) your name down is your prerogative. However, it makes your stated opinions no more/less valid than anyone's.

[messenger]

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[Message Board]

I'm not going to say it was better then or it's better now, but it's certainly not as alive. Boy, the town's changing. I liked it better when it was a small Message Board http://www.burnandturn.com Message Board farming community

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