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Is Anyone Else Pissed About This?
So the people at Microsoft have decided that they know better than me how I want my feed to look in their new browser.
Now I appreciate their effort to make a feed look decent in a browser. RSS has suffered mightily from the screen full of XML that many get when they click on a RSS link.
FeedBurner addressed that several years ago with their "browser friendly" feed presentation service. And Microsoft picked up on that idea and they present feeds nicely in Internet Explorer 7. Unfortunately they don't recognize my style sheet and so fastavc.com (which is just my feed with some styling on it) looks like this in IE7.
This is how its supposed to look:
What's worse is that Microsoft also strips off services that allow you to subscribe to the feed in various feed readers (another popular feature of FeedBurner's browser friendly service). And, you guessed it, they only allow you to subscribe to the feed in IE7. I thought we were finally witnessing a nicer Microsoft. I guess not.
Comments (26) | Posted October 18, 2006 in Venture Capital and Technology
Comments
Well, first, feeds aren't supposed to be "pretty" they are supposed to be convenient.
Second, your feed is, well, beauty challenged. :)
Third, a kinder, gentler Microsoft? Where did that come from? Windows Genuine Advantage?
Finally, I suspect it will be easy to hack custom stylesheets into IE7... I haven't played with it yet, but the feeds (RSS/Atom) are just XML, and IE is probably just applying a default stylesheet, which you can probably locate and change... because, frankly, I don't want *you* telling me how your feed should be displayed to me any more than MS. I'm not interested in your idea of what looks good, I'm interested in your content, and I want it presented in the way *I* want to read it.
Posted by: Dave! | Oct 18, 2006 12:06:25 PM
Well, I have to say that I'm slightly more concerned about the lengthening download time that your widgets and "some" styling causes, not to mention the possibility that you'd bring your Blackberry to dinner with me! But yes - if I used Internet Explorer I'd be mightily pissed off. However, I don't like being pissed off or infected, hence I don't use IE.
Posted by: John Dodds | Oct 18, 2006 12:11:27 PM
I am NOT pissed about it! In situations like your FastAVC feed, my preference certainly would be to have them recognize a feed's default style sheet.
However, what if the default style sheet didn't include options to subscribe or even do a nice job formatting things up? Based on this, it seems like this is a necessary 'insufficient implementation' to take the approach they have (because some default style sheets may not render as cleanly as FB does.)
To overcome this (in cases like fastavc.com), publishers will have to ensure they have a webpage that formats up the site like they want - not just redirect to a feed with a default style sheet.
And at the end of the day … the important thing is that now even publishers that don't use FeedBurner like services (which I do for my blog) will not end up sending their users to a cryptic page when they click on the RSS or XML button. (I know based on your relationship with FeedBurner you'd just rather everyone move to FB.)
And even more importantly, everyone will have an RSS reader on their desktop. We have to all agree this is a good thing for the future of content syndication.
Posted by: Sean Ammirati | Oct 18, 2006 12:19:13 PM
I would be pissed too if I had almost 7000 unread emails:) Perhaps feedburner can re-burn a copy of the feed specific to IE7 standards. Basically its a game of catch up between each company - whenever a change is made it takes awhile for things to align again. I think that as long as people have their non sidebar bling version with txt and pictures they will be happy. Hopefully IE or Feedburner will be able to solve the problem. I read through bloglines which still works great.
Posted by: Eric | Oct 18, 2006 12:21:44 PM
So? Feeds aren't supposed to be "styled" in the first place. I don't want banner's, backgrounds, sidebars, and "noise" in the feed. I want a simple text block I can scan along with all the others for the information I want.
Make your feed stand out with INFORMATION, not bling.
Posted by: Michael Long | Oct 18, 2006 12:59:51 PM
So you want Microsoft to display your RSS feed in the style you think is appropriate? Why even bother with RSS then, you are simply re-inventing HTML. I thought the point of RSS was to separate content from presentation. Your feed should look the way I want it to, you stay out of it.
Posted by: Derek | Oct 18, 2006 1:53:51 PM
I stopped using the IE7 beta for this exact reason. When I click on a feedburner feed it would default to ie's feed display with the only option of subscribing via ie. When all I wanted to do was click the little "add to google reader" that feedburner offers.
Posted by: Dave | Oct 18, 2006 1:57:14 PM
Hey Dave - I'm with you (I'm biased, of course!). Fortunately, for end users, there's an answer. Details are here.
--Rick Klau
(VP, Publisher Services, FeedBurner)
Posted by: Rick Klau | Oct 18, 2006 2:05:01 PM
Fred,
I don't think microsoft does this stuff on purpose. It's a huge company and I assume when you work in Redmond you unknowingly get locked into the Microsoft bubble. Also, your just used to FF. If IE7 came out first and you were used to the way the present your information and FF came along and you tested out the way the present your information, you would say they suck. I know many people who use IE and they think FF has it all wrong.
Posted by: Andrew | Oct 18, 2006 2:14:35 PM
Fred - you're right on with this. I was upset with it from the time of the first beta preview release and so were others by MSFT ignored the complaints. Microsoft thinks that it is helping by getting rid of the code look of xml, but by confining the user experience (at least without some extra effort) to the ie7 feed reader, it's really hampering the RSS experience. There's no way I would read as many feeds as I do if it weren't for bloglines - long term this stifles the progress of RSS.
Posted by: j.d.a. | Oct 18, 2006 2:51:21 PM
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'm really glad that MS included a streamlined RSS system into IE7. It does exactly what any third party newsreader does - it takes the feed content and formats it into their system for easy digestion.
When you're using RSS in IE7, the browser is more feedreader than browser. It's not supposed to show the styling, it's supposed to use (what I think is a pretty solid) simple layouts to make the content REALLY EASY to get through.
Once you realize that MS made a feedreader inside their browser, it makes sense why it works the way it does. And frankly, I think their presentation is pretty good, and the only reason I don't use it is because Firefox is so damn amazing in every other respect.
Additionally, I think it's pointless to get worked up over embedded presentation in RSS. I've said it before and I'll repeat it here: RSS needs to be invisible. We have HTML, CSS, JAVA, and a million other ways to make things flashy and cool looking in a browser. RSS exists to deliver content only, behind-the-scenes like, so that the user can choose, through the programs they use, how they'd like to get it.
Posted by: Jason | Oct 18, 2006 3:19:18 PM
The worst thing about the MS version is that it forces you to use I.E. to read the feed... doesn't let you use your default feedreader or MyYahoo, etc.
I'm sure there's a way around it, but typical folks will end up using i.e. for reading feeds as well.
(Also, what kind of idiot has almost 7000 unread emails in his gmail folder??)
Posted by: Rick | Oct 18, 2006 3:31:17 PM
Yup. I blogged about this when I noticed it back in February:
http://www.tinyscreenfuls.com/2006/02/ie7-breaks-feedburner-custom-feed-styles-forces-its-own/
If it makes you feel better (or worse), Firefox 2 now does the exact same thing... :-)
Posted by: Josh Bancroft | Oct 18, 2006 3:56:08 PM
Yes think it is bad. Our RSS reader supports full flash, HTML, quicktime and WMV. We are looking forward to richer feeds. The IE 7 media experience is not fun. Bloglines shows flash. To my knowledge we are one of the few readers supporting most major media types in the feed.
www.inclue.com
Posted by: nick gogerty | Oct 18, 2006 5:24:34 PM
When I made my Atom Info Proposal way back in December 2003, I had hoped to provide a way for feed producers or consumers to message to the user what they were indeed consuming. It seems that if there is a stylesheet detected by a browser that it should be respected, though I imagine that could be contentious since CSS in XML could be percieved as a hack in the first place. I think what matters more is that MS is transparent about letting you add feeds to the feedreader or tool of your choice rather than forcing you to use their built-in reader. How open are they on that side of things?
Posted by: Jason Shellen | Oct 18, 2006 7:25:45 PM
Nick - does it support javascripts?
Posted by: Rick | Oct 18, 2006 8:35:36 PM
Looks like you'll get your answer shortly as IE7 was just released:
Internet Explorer 7 for Windows XP Available Now
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/10/18/internet-explorer-7-for-windows-xp-available-now.aspx
Posted by: Jarid | Oct 18, 2006 8:48:50 PM
They're just duplicating what Safari does.
RSS usability is horribly problematic.
Presenting the feed to users as an A HREF is a mistake. The little orange "XML" chicklet is a mistake. Having it be clickable doubly so.
Posted by: joshua | Oct 18, 2006 10:36:31 PM
I'll admit that I'm not particularly fussed about IE hijacking Fred's style - there's some good comments earlier about the pros and cons that I don't need to add to. The key gripe though, is forcing you to use IE for the sub ... now it doesn't "piss" me because (despite the best efforts of Scoble and Kim Cameron over the last couple of years) I DON'T really expect MS to have changed that much. My advice, Fred - lower your expectations where MS is concerned. At least you'll be pleasantly surprised at Kim Cameron's work, rather than pissed.
Posted by: Ric | Oct 19, 2006 12:00:06 AM
Fred, we're on your side. Users like to customize things, including their RSS feeds. We give users tools to customize their feed to look anyway they like. What they do is shape the feed to look like their website or blog (text, art, color, graphics) and integrate a podcast into their site in a seamless way. Not with IE7 (or, as noted by others, FireFox 2.0).
Rick K. from Feedburner located the setting in IE7 to fix it (thanks Rick!), but the pain will be great.
We've got a workaround that should effectively un-hijack the feed, but it's stupid to force developers into unnatural acts just to make something look the way the user intended it to in the first place.
Posted by: Scott Converse | Oct 19, 2006 2:39:48 AM
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Posted by: sguihjnk | Oct 19, 2006 2:55:40 AM
Like Josh Bancroft pointed out above, Firefox 2 does exactly the same thing - it ignores your stylesheet and applies its own built-in rendering.
Posted by: Phil Wilson | Oct 19, 2006 6:47:03 AM
Yeah, what Sguihjnk said...
I too think this administration has gone too far when they start dictating style formats of RSS feeds. Rumsfeld should tender his resignation immediately. He refuses to allow the Army football team to run the wishbone offense and now this? The GOP is going to feel it in Nov. baby.
Posted by: Tony Alva | Oct 19, 2006 9:40:46 AM
Newsgator does the same thing - no style there either, just the text. Which is probably a good thing since it's so slow!
I only want to read the feed, every so often I visit the actual blog.
In the end It isn't so bad.
Posted by: Jonathan | Oct 19, 2006 2:51:16 PM
The shared feed list in IE is exactly that -- shared. It's an open API that most aggregator vendors (inc. newsgator and bloglines) already support. You get a standard UI regardless of which aggregator you're using to read; rather than bling scattered about in random places.
Posted by: Joshua Allen [MSFT] | Oct 24, 2006 10:01:23 PM
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